[인터뷰 번역] Jay-Z 와 뉴욕 타임즈 편집장 딘 바켓
 
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Updated at 2020-07-16 12:23:33

 

Dean Baquet: 먼저 와주셔서 감사합니다. 환영해요. 

First, welcome. It’s great to have you here. 


Jay-Z: 감사합니다. 

Thank you. 

 

Baquet: 오늘 대화를 나누고 싶은 부분은 인종에 관한 얘기에요그리고 음악에 대해서도요개인적으로 “The Story of O.J.”라는 곡을 인상 깊게 들었어요. “돈이 많든 돈이 없든 똑같은 흑인이다라는 메시지를 받았는데누구한테 전하고 싶은 얘기였나요이러한 얘기를 듣고 누가 변화하길 바랐나요?

The things I want to talk to you about: I want to talk a little bit about race. Your music some, too. I thought the song "The Story of O.J.," was particularly powerful. I took the message as, "You can be rich, you can be poor, you're still black." Who were you speaking to? Who did you want to listen to that and be moved by it?

 

Jay-Z: 되게 미묘하고도 복잡한 노래이죠저는 저희 스스로에게 말을 하고 있는 거에요우리가 누구인지에 대해서그리고 어떻게 자아를 지켜내면서 앞으로 나아갈  있는지우리의 행동에 대한 책임을   있게왜냐면 미국에서는  모든 상황들이 어쩔  없는 거니까요그래도 우리가 영향력이 생긴다면 제가 혼자 이런 얘기를 하면서 미국을 바꾸려 하는 것보단  말이 되는 상황이 되겠죠제가 4천만 명의 사람들과 함께 움직인다면그건 지금과 상황이 완전히 달라지겠죠그렇게 많은 사람과 함께라면 원하는 사람을 정부에 앉힐 수도변화를 만들 수도 있겠죠왜냐면 우리는  같은 것을 원하고 있을 테니까요그렇지 않나요그래서 “나는 돈이 많은  아니라나는 O.J. 거야라고 하는 거에요같은 공간에 들어가 나머지 문화적인 요소들로 부터 벗어날  있게그렇게 시작하는 거죠그리고 그다음에는 어떤 일이 벌어지는지 아세요그다음엔 다시 혼자인 거에요.

It's a nuanced song, you know. It's like, I'm specifically speaking to us. And about who we are and how do you maintain the sense of self while pushing it forward and holding us to have a responsibility for our actions. Because in America, it is what it is. And there's a solution for us: If we had a power base together, it would be a much different conversation than me having a conversation by myself and trying to change America by myself. If I come with 40 million people, there's a different conversation, right? It's just how it works. I can effect change and get whomever in office because this many people, we're all on the same page. Right? So the conversation is, like, "I'm not rich, I'm O.J." For us to get in that space and then disconnect from the culture. That's how it starts. This is what happens. And then you know what happens? You're on your own, and you see how that turned out.

 

Baquet: 혹시 인종에 관련된 논쟁들이 O.J.에게 “넌 아무리 부자여도, 많은 권리가 있어도 그저 흑인이야”라는 것을 다시 상기시켜준 것은 아닐까요?

Was it a reminder, too, that the thing O.J. forgot, maybe, was that as rich as he was, as entitled as his life was, he was reminded very forcefully when he became a subject of racial debate that he was also a black man, whether he accepted that or not?

 

Jay-Z: 맞는 얘기에요. 그리고 제가 지금 하고자 하는 얘기는 그걸 까먹지 말라는 거에요. 왜냐면 그게 목적이 아니니까. 성공하고 유명해지는 게 목적이 아니에요. 재능이 주어진 분야 속에서 커리어를 만들고, 그리고 두 번째로 우리가 동일한 선상에 놓일 때까지 이 대화를 밀고 나가는 거에요. 이곳에서 우리가 모두 동등해질 때까지. 왜냐면 모든 존재가 자유를 얻기 전에는 아무도 자유롭지 못한 거거든요. 이건 팩트에요.

That's right. Absolutely. And for us, like I'm saying, to speak to that the point is, "Don't forget that," because that's really not the goal. The goal is not to be successful and famous. That's not the goal. The goal is, if you have a specific God-given ability, is to live your life out through that. One. And two, we have a responsibility to push the conversation forward until we're all equal. Till we're all equal in this place. Because until everyone's free, no one's free, and that's just a fact. 

 

[The Story of O.J. 뮤직 비디오]: 

 

Baquet: 놀라울 만큼 성공한 인생을  사람으로서당신의 아이들은 당신이 자라온 것과는 아주 다른 세상을 살아갈 텐데 아이들에게 당신이  세상을 이해 시킬  있을까요?

When you're as amazingly successful as you are, your kids will live in a very different world from the world you grew up in. How do you go about making sure that they understand the world you grew up in?

 

Jay-Z: 아주 조심스러운 균형이 필요한 문제겠죠? 왜냐면 사회가 오늘의 모습이 될 때까지의 과정과 현재 상황을 둘 다 가르쳐줘야 하니까요. 그래도 제 아이들은 제가 크면서 필요했던 도구들은 필요 없을 거에요. 제가 살아남기 위해 사용했던 것들은 오늘 제 아이들에게 필요 없는 것들이니까요. 많이 다른 환경에서 자라고 있는 거죠. 그래도 우리의 역사를 알고는 있어야 한다고 생각해요. 어떻게 여기까지 오게 됬는지, 그리고 동정에 대해서. 가르쳐주고 싶은 것 중에 동정이 제일 중요하다고 생각해요. 다른 사람들의 힘듦에 공감하고 그 사람들이 우리를 위해서 어떠한 희생을 해왔는지, 그 사람들 덕분에 우리가 오게 된 위치. 이런 것들을 보여주는 게 제일 중요하다고 생각해요. 왜냐면 항상 강인하게만 살아야 했던 제 과거들은 굳이 가르쳐주고 싶지 않거든요. 

There's a delicate balance to that, right? Because you have to educate your children on the world as it exists today and how it got to that space, but my child doesn't need the same tools that I needed growing up. I needed certain tools to survive my area that my child doesn't need. They're growing up in a different environment. But also they have to know their history. Have a sense of what it took to get to this place. And have compassion for others. The most important thing I think out of all this is to teach compassion and to identify with everyone's struggle and to know these people made these sacrifices for us to be where we are and to push that forward — for us. I believe that's the most important thing to show them, because they don't have to know things that I knew growing up. Like being tough.

 

Baquet: 역사에 대해 알려주는 만큼그리고 당신이 흑인들 사이에서 중요한 역할을 맡은 만큼뭔가 빠트리고 있는 부분이 있을  있다는 걱정이 되나요아니면 그런 부정적인 걱정은 필요 없이 그게 아이들의 장점이   있을까요?

Do you worry at all that as much as you will teach them history, and as much as you yourself are seen as an important figure among black people in America, that there's something they'll be missing? Or do you think that's silly, [that] in fact they'll have so many advantages that that's too negative of a way to approach it?

 

Jay-Z: 그렇죠, 자기 자신은 자기가 제일 잘 알겠죠? 그리고 그냥 제가 아이들에게 주고 싶은 도구들이기도 하죠. 앞서 말한 거처럼 공정, 동정, 그리고 이해와 사랑. 언어와 환경 상관없이 번역되는 것들이잖아요. 기본적인 것들, 그리고 제 아이들에게 바라는 것들. 아시죠? 그게 누구이던, 어떤 사회적인 위치에 있던, 그냥 모든 사람을 사람처럼 대하는 것. 강한 사람과 약한 사람 차별 없이 똑같이 대하는 것. 저는 제 아이들에게 사랑을 사줄 수도, 보여줄 수도 없어요. 애정을 주고 사랑을 표현해줄 수는 있지만, 그걸 걔네의 손에 쥐어줄 순 없는 거니까요. 동정도 마찬가지이고요. 그래서 제일 아름다운 것들은 눈에 보이지 않는다고 하는 거죠. 보이지 않는 곳에 제일 중요한 것들이 있는 거죠.

Exactly. Like, they'll be who they are, right? And it's just certain tools that you would hope for your child to have. You know, like, again, fairness and compassion and empathy and a loving heart. And those things translate in any environment. Those are the main base things that you want — well, for me, I would want my child to have. You know? Treat people as they are, no matter who they are, no matter where they sit in the world, not to, like, be super nice to someone at a high position or mean to someone who they've deemed to be below them. I can't buy you love, I can't show it to you. I can show you affection and I can, you know, I can express love, but I can't put it in your hand. I can't put compassion in your hand. I can't show you that. So the most beautiful things are things that are invisible. That's where the important things lie.

 

Baquet: 제가 어렸을  O.J. 심슨은 마치  같은 존재였어요저는 올해 61세이니까 제가 어렸을  얘기이죠당신의 음악을 들었을  흑인백인어린 애들그리고 어르신들이 모두 각자 다른 메시지를 전달받을까요제가  노래를 들었을  당신도 생각 못했을 이야기를 생각했을 수도 있어요저는 다른 세대의 사람이니까요어린 백인 아이가  노래를 들었을  어떤 메시지를 들었으면 좋겠나요?

For me as a black man of a certain age, when I was a kid O.J. Simpson was God. I'm 61, so I was a little kid when he was [around]. Do you expect black people and white people and young people and old people to hear different things in your music? I'm sure I heard some things in that song that you may not even have thought of 'cause I'm a different generation. What do you want a young white kid to hear in that song that maybe a young black kid would not hear?

 

Jay-Z: 아주 좋은 질문이네요. 음악을 만들 때 사람들이 각자 다른 메시지를 듣고 그 사이에서 대화가 시작되길 바라는 거 같아요. 왜냐면 그래야 서로를 이해할 수 있는 거니까요. “아, 넌 그렇게 생각했구나.” “난 사실 이런 의도로 얘기한 거야, 왜냐면 이런 일이 있었고 이런 이유로 한 말이거든.” 이런 식으로 말이에요.

That's a great question. I think when you make music, you want people to hear different things, and then you want it to start a dialogue. Because that's how we get to understanding. "Oh, you felt that way about it." "This is actually what I meant, because this happened, and these things happened, that led to me saying this specific thing.”

 

Baquet: 가사 중에 유대인과 부에 대한 얘기를  내용이 논란이 됐었는데 이거에 대해 어떻게 생각하세요?

How did you react when that one line in that song where you referred to Jews and wealth ["You ever wonder why Jewish people own all the property in America? This how they did it"] — some people got upset. How did you feel about that?

 

Jay-Z: 저는 되게 위선적인 반응이라고 생각해요. 왜냐면 이 노래는 “부자가 되고 싶어? 그럼 부자들이 했던 행동들을 똑같이 해”라는 얘기를 하고 있거든요. 이건 그저 광범위한 얘기일 뿐이고요. 이 노래에 딸린 영상도 그렇듯 그냥 광범위한 얘기이죠. 따라서 제가 흑인들에 대해 한 발언이 문제가 없다면, 그리고 영상에 나왔던 수박을 먹던 사람들 [뮤직 비디오에 나오는 장면]에 문제가 없다면, 이 노래 가사도 문제가 없어야 맞는 거죠. 이 가사에만 불만이 있다면 그건 위선적인 것이고요. ‘마이클 조던 그리고 르브론 제임스는 훌룡한 농구 선수이다. 그들은 오프 시즌때도 훈련을 한다. 그들처럼 성공하고 싶으면 그들처럼 훈련하라.’ 이런 논리인 거잖아요. 5살이 아니고서야 이 노래의 문맥을 놓치진 않겠죠.

I felt it was really hypocritical. Only because it's obvious the song is, like, "Do you want to be rich? Do what people got rich done." Of course, it's a general statement, right? It's obviously a general statement, like the video attached to it was a general statement. And if you didn't have a problem with the general statement I made about black people, and people eating watermelon and things like that [the animated music video for the song, which references racist cartoons, includes a caricature of a black man eating watermelon] — if that was fine, [but] that line about wealth bothered you, then that's very hypocritical, and, you know, that's something within yourself. 'Cause basically, I was saying, you know, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, is a great basketball player. He trains in the off-season. If you want to be great, train in off-season like him. That's basically the statement. You can't miss the context of the song. You have to be like 5 years old or something.

 

Baquet: 사람들은 도널드 트럼프의 선거가 미국  인종에 대한 토론을 다시 재조명하고 있다는 반응인데요어떤 사람들은 미국 사회에 인종차별은 항상 존재했다고 하고아무것도 바뀐  없이 그저 관심만 늘었다고 하는데이거에 대해 어떻게 생각하세요? 

Some people think that the election of Donald Trump has revived the debate about race in America. Some people think that, in fact, there's always been racism in America; that it hasn't changed and that the debate isn't any different. It's just people are paying attention to it. What do you think?

 

Jay-Z: 네, 칸예 웨스트의 좋은 가사가 하나 떠오르네요. “인종차별은 아직도 존재해, 그저 그걸 가리고 있는 것뿐.” 한걸음 물러나서 생각해봐요. 도널드 스털링이 NBA에서 쫓겨났을 때, 저는 그가 당연히 잘못을 한 줄 알았어요. 왜냐면 먼저 잘못을 해야 쫓겨나는 게 상식적인 거잖아요? 근데 그 이후에 사람들은 그냥 뒤로 가서 숨어요. 저였다면 그를 혼자 놔두지는 않았을 거에요. 페널티를 받던 선출 기회를 뺏던 했었어야 하는데, 그냥 없애버리니까 다들 뒤로 숨은 거죠. 그리고 대화는 거기서 끊기는 거죠. 도널드 트럼프가 대통령이 되어 좋은 점은 이제 대화를 피할 수 없게 됐다는 거에요. 많은 사람이 이런 대화를 나누고 있고, 그는 우리가 대화할 수 있는 플랫폼을 마련해준 거죠.

Yeah, there was a great Kanye West line in one of [his] songs: "Racism's still alive, they just be concealin' it." Take a step back. I think when Donald Sterling got kicked out of the N.B.A., I thought it was a misstep, because when you kick someone out, of course he's done wrong, right? But you also send everyone else back in hiding. People talk like that. They talk like that. Let's deal with that. I wouldnt just, like, leave him alone. It should have been some sort of penalties. He could have lost some draft picks. But getting rid of him just made everyone else go back into hiding, and now we cant have the dialogue. The great thing about Donald Trump being president is now were forced to have the dialogue. Now were having the conversation on the large scale; hes provided the platform for us to have the conversation.

 

Baquet: 그리고 그게 좋은 거라고 생각하세요우리가 대화를 하고 있다는 ?

And you think that's better? That we should be having a conversation?

 

Jay-Z: 당연하죠. 이 모든 상황이 대화에서부터 시작된 건데요.

Absolutely. That's why this is happening.

 

Baquet: 이런 인종에 대한 토론들이 좋은 형태로 진행되고 있다고 생각하세요?

Do you think the debate over race in America is happening in a healthy way?

 

Jay-Z: 뭐, 제일 이상적인 상황은 대통령이 “난 대화를 하고 싶고 이걸 고칠 의향이 있어”라고 얘기하는 것인데, 그래도 좋은 영향을 주고 있다고 생각해요. 왜냐면 문제를 건드리기 전에는 해결책을 찾을 수 없는 거니까. 상처도 수면위로 드러나야 치료할 수 있는 것처럼요. 맞죠? 제가 종양이 있는데 그걸 모른다고 해서 그게 없어지는 게 아니잖아요. 먼저 진단을 해야 하죠. 그걸 어떻게 찾게 되든 상관없는 거에요. 제가 공에 맞아서 통증을 느끼고 의사를 찾아가 종양을 발견한다 해도, 그냥 그렇게 되는 거죠. 제 말이 이해가 되시나요? 그니까 어떻게 되든, NFL 농담을 섞어서 말하자면, 우리는 그저 수 많은 공에 계속 맞고 있는 거죠.

Well, an ideal way is to have a president that says, "I'm open to dialogue and fixing this." That's ideal. But it's still happening in a good way, because you can't have a solution until you start dealing with the problem: What you reveal, you heal. Right? If I have like a tumor, and I don't know it, it doesn't mean it goes away. I have to diagnose it first. No matter how it happens. If I get hit with a football, and, like, Oh, I feel something there, and then I go to the doctor — it still happened. 

 

Baquet: 농구라는 종목이 미식축구보다 정치적인 면에서  적극적이라고 생각하세요 그럴까요?

Do you think basketball is more politically active than football? Why is that? 

 

Jay-Z: 먼저 사람 수가 더 적으니까요. 한 팀에 12명. 미식축구는 53명. 53명이 같은 생각을 하는 게 쉬운 일은 아니잖아요. 일단 12명이 대화를 나누고 같은 생각을 하는 게 훨씬 쉽죠. 두 번째로는 NBA 위원장님은 되게 좋으신 분이에요, 항상 열려있고 그들을 지지해주죠. 그리고 그걸 느낄 수 있어요. 뒤에서 누군가가 흔들리지 않고 맞는 일만 한다면 그게 그대로 느껴지고 자신도 똑같이 하게 되는 자극이되죠. 그래서 더 앞서나가고 있는 거 같아요.

I think because, first of all, it's smaller numbers. It's 12 people on a team. In football you have 53 people. So it's harder to get 53 people thinking the same thing. It's easier to have a conversation to get 12 people on the same page. For one. Two, [the N.B.A. has] a great ... they have a great commissioner who's really open. And, you know, supports them. And you feel that. You feel like, you know, when you have someone behind you that really believe in what's right, it motivates you to do the right thing. I think those two factors show why they're much further along. 

 

Baquet: 이렇게 유명하고 부자가  후에도 인종차별을 겪어본 적이 있나요?

Are there incidents even at this stage in your life — you're famous, you're rich, you own stuff — where you run into racism that's evident to you, that's easy to recognize?

 

Jay-Z: 네. 근데 대부분 현재 상황에 대한 도전장을 내밀 때 생기죠. 조용히 남들에게 재미만 주고 있다면 다들 문제없겠죠. 너무 좋은 상황이겠죠, 인종차별도 없고. 근데 대중을 상대로 도전을 할 때는 그게 아니에요. 이럴 때는, 솔란지의 앨범 타이틀을 빌려 얘기하자면, 테이블에 앉아야죠. 그리고 그 이후에는 그들도 똑같이 하고 있는 행동에 대해서 저에게 화를 내겠죠. 이상한 부분을 건드리게 되는 거에요.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But it mostly comes when you try to challenge the status quo. If I’m being quiet and entertaining, everyone’s cool. Ah man, it’s great. You don’t feel racism. But when you try to challenge the club, it’s like, Oh, nah, we should have a seat at — to use the Solange album title — we should have a seat at this table. And then it gets into a space where it’s like, wait, you guys are mad at me about the same thing you guys are doing. It gets into a weird space.

 

Baquet: 사업적인 미팅에 들어가게 되면  방안에 유일한 흑인인가요?

Are you in meetings now in your business life where you're the only black man in the room?

 

Jay-Z: 농구팀 네츠와 일을 할 때는 확실히 저 혼자 흑인이었어요.

 Well, when I was doing the Nets, I was definitely the only black guy in the room.

 

Baquet: 그때 기분이 어땠나요설명해주세요.

And what was that like? Describe that.

 

Jay-Z: 음, 이상한 상황이었죠. 근데 그 방안에서는 제 유명세와 제 위치가 저에게 발언권을 줬다고 생각해요. 그래서 저 말고 다른 흑인이었다면 그것 또한 아주 다른 상황이었을 거 같아요.

It was um, it's strange, but at the same time I think that ... I think that in that room, my celebrity allowed me a voice that probably would have been awkward for someone [else] in my position being the only black person in the room to break through.

 

Baquet: 이 “4:44” 앨범은 저한테 마치 치료 요법 같아요. 혹시 정신과 상담을 받아본 적 있나요?

This album ["4:44."] sounds to me like a therapy session. Have you been in therapy?

 

Jay-Z: 네네.

Yeah, yeah.

 

Baquet: 일단, 제이지는 상담사를 어떻게 찾나요? 전화번호부에서 찾진 않으셨을 거 아니에요

First off, how does Jay-Z find a therapist? Not in the Phone book, right?

 

Jay-Z: 아니요, 좋은 친구들을 통해서요. 많은 일을 겪었던, 그리고 그 일들을 통해서 완전한 사람이 된 친구들이요.

No, through great friends of mine. You know. Friends of mine who've been through a lot and, you know, come out on the other side as, like, whole individuals.

 

Baquet: 치료 받는  어땠나요혼자서는 깨닫지 못했던 것들에 대해 얘기 나눴나요?

What was that like, being in therapy? What did you talk about that you had never acknowledged to yourself or talked about?

 

Jay-Z: 그 경험을 통해서 너무 많이 성장했어요. 그중에서 제일 중요한 건 모든 걸 다 연결했다는 거에요. 모든 감정이 서로 다 연결되고 그걸 의식하면서 매일을 살아가는 건 아주... 유리하게 만들어줘요. 예를 들면 누군가가 누구에게 인종차별을 한다면, 그건 그 사람 개인에 대한 문제가 아닌 거에요. 그 사람이 왜 그런 발언을 하게 되었는지, 그 사람에게 어떤 일이 있었고 무엇이 방아쇠 역할을 했는지 생각하게 되요. 약자를 괴롭히는 사람들은 그냥 그런 사람인 거잖아요. 그냥 괴롭히는 거죠. ‘아, 넌 어렸을 때 괴롭힘을 당해서 나한테도 똑같이 행동하는 거구나. 난 이해해.’

그리고 그걸 이해하는 순간 감정적으로 반응하는 대신 더 부드럽게 다가갈 수 있어요. “그랬구나, 넌 괜찮니?” 이런 식으로요. 제 동네에서는 “뭘 봐? 날 왜 쳐다봐? 나 보고 있는 거야?”로 시작한 싸움들이 많았어요. 이제는 깨달았죠. “아, 널 본 거 같았구나. 넌 지금 아파하고 있고 그걸 내가 보고 있으니까 그게 싫었구나. 내가 그걸 안 봤으면 좋겠구나.”

“너의 아픔을 내가 보는 게 싫구나. 너는... 그래서 너는 강인한 가면을 쓰고 싸울 준비, 그리고 더 나아가서 날 죽일 준비까지 하는구나.” 그래서 제가 지금 하는 얘기는 그 모든 걸 인지하고 이해하는 순간 인생이 바뀐다는 거에요.

I grew so much from the experience. But I think the most important thing I got is that everything is connected. Every emotion is connected and it comes from somewhere. And just being aware of it. Being aware of it in everyday life puts you at such a ... you're at such an advantage. You know, you realize that if someone's racist toward you, it ain't about you. It's about their upbringing and what happened to them, and how that led them to this point. You know, most bullies bully. It just happen. Oh, you got bullied as a kid so you trying to bully me. I understand.

And once I understand that, instead of reacting to that with anger, I can provide a softer landing and maybe, Aw, man, is you O.K.?I was just saying there was a lot of fights in our neighborhood that started with What you looking at? Why you looking at me? You looking at me?And then you realize: Oh, you think I see you. Youre in this space where youre hurting, and you think I see you, so you dont want me to look at you. And you dont want me to see you.

You don't want me to see your pain. You don't ... So you put on this shell of this tough person that's really willing to fight me and possibly kill me 'cause I looked at you. You know what I'm saying, like, so ... Knowing that and understanding that changes life completely.

 

Baquet: 그리고  깨달음은 상담을 통해서 배운 건가요?

Was that a moment that came from therapy?

 

Jay-Z: 네. 그 어린 남자들이 뭐 때문에... 스스로 아파하고 있다는걸 깨달았죠. 살아가야 하니까. 생존모드로 들어가는 거죠. 생존을 위해 살게 되면 어떻게 되는지 아세요? 모든 감정을 차단하게 되요. 여자들한테도요. 감정적인 모든 걸 끊으니까 연결될 수가 없게 되는 거죠.

Yeah — just realizing that, oh my goodness, these young men coming from these ... they just in pain.You have to survive. So you go into survival mode, and when you go into survival mode what happen? You shut down all emotions. So even with women, you gonna shut down emotionally, so you can't connect.

 

Baquet: 자기 자신에 대한 생각들 때문에 연결될 수가 없다는 건가요?

You can't connect because of the way you feel about yourself, you mean?

 

Jay-Z: 네. 제 입장에서는, 네, 되게 심오한 얘기에요. 그리고 거기서부터 모든 일이 일어나는 거죠, 배신을 시작으로요.

Yes. In my case, like it's, it's deep. And then all the things happen from there: infidelity.

 

Baquet: 지금까지 영혼에서부터 많은 얘기들을 들어내고 계시잖아요 앨범에서뿐만 아니라 음악을 통해서  사람이 성장하는  보이잖아요만약에 저였다면 ‘결혼 얘기도 해야 하고어머니 얘기가정 얘기까지.’ 이러면서 미쳐 버렸을  같기도 해요당신도 그런가요아니면 당신 음악의 존재는 인생에 대한 얘기들로부터 시작되는 건가요?

You've bared your soul so much. Not only in this album — you can sort of see the evolution of a person in your music. Part of me would think, Oh my god, I gotta talk about my marriage, I gotta talk about my mother, I gotta talk about my other ancestors. Part of me would think that would make me nuts. Does it make you nuts, or do you feel like the heart of your art is to tell the story of your life?

 

Jay-Z: 그게 제 모습인 거죠. 이 일을 시작했을 때부터 꾸준히 해온 것이기도 하고요. 두 가지의 대해 말씀드리고 싶어요. 일단 옛날에는 제 이야기 속 주인공들을 아무도 몰랐으니까 지금만큼 영향력이 있진 않았어요. 그리고 두 번째로 아직 많이 알려지지 않은 것들에 대해 얘기를 하고 있었죠. 그래서 더 어려웠어요. 예전에는 음악을 듣는다는 게 쉬운 일은 아니었으니까요. 공연을 하는 것도... 하지만 제가 했던 일 중에 제일 잘했다고 생각하고 스스로 뿌듯해하고 있는 일이에요. 그 곡들이 사람들에게 준 영향들이 말이에요. 작업실에서도 노래 하나를 듣고 나서는 4시간 동안 대화를 하곤 했죠. 제 주변 사람들에 대해서도 많이 배웠고, 이십년지기 친구들에 대해서도 몰랐던 것들을 노래 하나로 인해 알게 됐죠. 그래서 저 말고도 많은 사람들한테 제 노래는 그런 영향을 줄 거 같았어요. 아티스트로서 그런 일을 하는 건 제 몫이기도 하고요.

That's who I — that's who I am. And I've done it from the beginning of my career. Two things: one, no one knew the characters [back then]. So it wasn't as impactful. And two, it wasn't coming from a place where it was as evolved. And it's very difficult. It's hard to hear songs back. It's hard to perform ... songs, but, um, I feel it's the most important work that I've done and I'm very proud of it and the effect that it's having on people. Even like the studio sessions, you know, we were having four-hour conversations after playing one song. I learned so much about people that was around me, just my friends, I learned things about them that I didn't know, in a 20-year relationship, just from this one song. So I knew it would have that sort of impact beyond myself. It's my responsibility as an artist to go to these places.

 

Baquet: 와이프분이 먼저 진실한 얘기를 담은 앨범을 발매했었는데거기에 대한 부담이 있었나요 앨범 때문에  진실해야 된다는 부담이런  말이에요.

Did your wife’s own confessional album, which came out first, make it so that you had to be even extra confessional. I mean, in other words, it would have been hard after her album which talked frankly about you guys.

 

Jay-Z: 사실 이런 작업을 같이 시작했었어요. 근데 그녀는 자기만의 것을 하러 간 거죠. 그리고 그녀가 먼저 나서서 그녀의 세계에 대한 이야기를 하는 게 맞는 일이죠. “아, 그 앨범 때문에 이런 얘기도 했어” 이런 건 없었어요, 그냥 솔직한 얘기들이었죠.

It actually started out, we were working on material together. And she went off to do her own thing, and it just felt like, she should go first and her truths with the world. It wasn’t based on “I had to say something because of this album,” it was just honest.

 

Baquet: 그래도 와이프분이 앞서 발매한 앨범에서는  관계 속에서의 상처를 이야기하는데 본인 앨범에서는 예술에 대한 사랑 얘기를 담으셨어요.

But you probably couldn't have gotten away with, O.K., you do the album, wife, that talks about our pain, I'm gonna go do an album that talks about, you know, my love of art.

 

Jay-Z: 네, 그냥, 아무도 예측할 수 없는 문제인 거 같아요. 저는 좋은 결과가 있었다고 생각하는데, 아무도 모르는 거죠. 사람들은 재미를 원하니까요. 아까 얘기했던 우리 대통령처럼 말이에요. 오바마가 시민들 앞에서 품위를 지키며 서 있던 연단 뒤에 이런 일들이 있을 거라고 누가 예측했겠어요. 근데 그렇게 됐잖아요.

Yeah, you just, you never know. I think it turned out for the best, but you just never know, because people like to be entertained. Again, back to our president. You would think, Man, after the composed manner in which Obama stood at that podium, the dignity he brought to that place, that this couldn't exist. But it does.

 

 

 

Baquet: 오바마에 대한 실망은 없었나요 흑인 대통령으로서 오바마에 대한 기대치가 높았잖아요인종차별을 없애고 모든  고쳐내야 한다는이게 불공평하다고 생각하세요당신의 기대치는 채워졌었나요?

Do you have any disappointments in Obama? There are people who say the expectations of him as the first black president were so great: He was supposed to get rid of racism and fix everything. Is that unfair? Did he live up to all of your expectations?

 

Jay-Z: 네, 왜냐면 그는 최선을 다했으니까요. 슈퍼히어로가 아니잖아요. 그리고 그의 피부 색 하나 때문에 만족시킬 수 없는 기대를 하는건 애초에 불공평한 거죠. 아니, 무슨 일이 생길 거라고 생각해요? 거기 8년 있는 거에요. 근데 지난 43명의 대통령이 했던 일들을 다 해결하라는 거잖아요. 8년 안에. 그건 불공평하죠.

Yes, because all he could do was the best he can do. He's not a superhero. And it's unfair to place unfulfillable expectations on this man just because of his color. You're actually doing the opposite. It's like, what do you think is gonna happen? He's there for eight years. And he has to undo what 43 presidents have done. In eight years. That's not fair.

 

Baquet: 그냥 흑인 리더쉽이라고 하는 대신그냥 미국 리더쉽에 대해 어떻게 생각하세요누구를 보고 “ 사람은  가치관과 비슷하구나라는 생각을 하세요?

What do you think of the state of — I'm not gonna say just black leadership, but leadership, period, on the things you care about in the country? Who do you, like, look at and say, "This man or woman speaks for the things I care about?”

 

Jay-Z: 되게 웃긴 얘기일 수도 있는데, 저는 데이브 샤펠을 좋아해요. 무슨 말인지 아시죠? 왜냐면 받아드리기 쉽게 유머를 섞어서 얘기하잖아요. 항상 유머 사이에 진실이 껴있으면 좋죠.

I find it funny, but ... I like Dave Chappelle's. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. 'Cause he tells it in humor so you can deal with it, but it's always a nice chunk of truth in there. 

 

Baquet: 돈이 많아서 조금  보수적으로 되는 되는 면들이 있나요아니면 돈이 정치적인 생각들에 영향이 아예 없었나요?

Is there a part of you, because you have a certain amount of money, that gets a little more conservative, or has having money not changed your politics?

 

Jay-Z: 아니요. 아니요, 저는 사람들을 믿어요. 사람들에게 최선인 것들을 원하고. 사람들을 사랑해요. 그래서, 뭐, 돈을 더 아끼려고 공화당을 뽑거나 이런 건 없어요. 돈이 끝은 아니잖아요. 누가 더 돈이 많고 집이 좋은지에 대한 게 아니잖아요. 네, 뭐, 돈도 어렵게 얻은 거겠죠. 그니까 사고 싶은거 사는 거고. 알잖아요? 근데 중요한 걸 까먹으면 안되요. 사람들이 없다면 돈이 많은 것도 재미없을걸요. 나눌 사람도 없고아무도... 무슨 얘기인지 아시죠그냥  많은 사람그냥 지구안에 한명의 부자그럼 뭐해요?

No. No, because I believe in people. I want what's best for people. I love people. You know, so I don't have that sort of thing, like, I want to vote Republican just to save more money. That's not the endgame. It's not about who got more money and who got more houses. Yes, you know, you've earned it, buy what you want. You know? But don't forget what's important. Without people, being rich would be very boring. No one to share with, no one to have ... You know what I mean? You'd just be a rich person, one person on the planet — just, like, well then what do you do? 

 

Baquet:  앨범을 들었을  지난 앨범들이 생각났어요. “약속의  맞닿은 주제가 하나 있다고 생각했는데이제 돈뿐만 아니라 영향력도 생기고 인생이 좋아졌잖아요근데  신규 앨범을 들어보면 이런 생각이 들어요, “인생이 좋아졌을 때도  사람은 아파하고 있었겠구나.” 사실인가요?

When I heard this latest album, and then I thought about the earlier albums, one theme was sort of reaching the promised land. You know, you've acquired influence, and not just money, but your life is good. And then when you listen to the newest album, you're thinking: He must have been in a lot of pain when life was good. Is that true?


Jay-Z: 네, “Song Cry”라는 곡의 훅처럼 “내 눈에서 흐른 적은 없지만, 난 이 노래를 울게 해야 해.” 제가 무엇을 숨기고 있었는지 이 가사가 바로 전해주고 있어요. 남자가 할 수 있는 제일 강한 일은 우는 거에요. 감정을 드러내고 세상에 연약한 모습을 보여주는 거. 그게 진짜 힘이죠. 그런 거 있잖아요, 괜히 항상 강인한 사람이어야 될 거 같은 기분. 그거 진짜 아니에요. 가짜이죠. 

Yeah. I did this song called "Song Cry." And the idea of the hook — "never seen it comin' down my eyes, but I gotta make the song cry." It tells you right there what I was, I was hiding. The strongest thing a man can do is cry. To expose your feelings, to be vulnerable in front of the world. That’s real strength. You know, you feel like you gotta be this guarded person. That’s not real. It’s fake.

 

Baquet: 그럼  기간 동안 행복하지 않았다는 건가요무슨 뜻인가요?

Does that mean you were unhappy during that period and didn't have a handle on it, or what?

 

Jay-Z: 뭐, 구분 지을 수 있는 문제 아닌가요? 행복할 수 있어도 그 중심에서는 다른 무언가가 생기는 거죠.

Well, you compartmentalize, right? So you can be, you can be inside your body and be happy, but at the core of it, something else is going on.

 

Baquet: 부모로서제가  앨범에서 제일 아팠던 부분은 가정을 잃었을 때의 얘기를 했을 때였어요그리고 다른 남자가 당신의 아이들과 공을 차면서 놀고 있는 모습을 볼때 어떨지이렇게 항상 음악을 통해서 당신의 인생에 관한 얘기를 담아왔는데그래도 지키고 있는 선이 있나요어렸을  받았던 상처어떻게 자라왔는지아버지가 일찍 떠나신 얘기결혼 이야기그리고 정신과 상담을 받았던 내용 모두  밝혔는데그래도 “여기까지는 말하지 않겠다라고 하는 선이 있나요?

As a parent, I thought one of the most painful scenes in the album was when you are talking about having almost lost your marriage, and what it would have been like to watch another man play football with your kid. Given that you have talked so much about your life in your music, are there things that you put a wall around? You've talked about the pain of growing up where you grew up, how you grew up, your father leaving early, the pain of your marriage, being in therapy: Are there things [about which] you say, "I'm not going there”?

 

Jay-Z: 네, 대부분 다른 3자가 개입되는 상황들이요. 왜냐면 저 말고 다른 사람이 포함된 얘기는 제가 준비가 돼 있다 하더라도 그 사람의 비밀이기도 하니까요. 이런 상황에 완벽한 예시는 저의 어머니겠네요. 처음에 어머니에 대한 노래를 내도 된다는 허락을 못 받았었어요. 그냥 되게 아름다운 대화를 나눴죠.

Yeah. And it mostly involves other people 'cause when other people are involved, you may be ready to expose these things, [but] it's also other people truth as well.A perfect example is my mom. I didn't have permission to do that song first. It's just like we had a beautiful conversation.

 

Baquet: 어머니가 동성애자인 것을 언제 깨달으셨나요?

When did you realize your mother was gay? 

 

Jay-Z: 음, 아주 일찍이요. 

Uh, really early on when, when I was ...

 

Baquet: 어린 아이 일때요?

Like as a little kid? 

 

Jay-Z: 아니요, 아니요. 10대라고 해두죠.

Not, no, not — let's call it teenage years.

 

Baquet: 그걸 깨달고 대화를 나눴나요?

So you realized that and talked to her about it? 

 

Jay-Z: 직접 얘기를 해본 적은 없어요. 그냥 그게 사실이었죠. 다들 알고 있는 비밀. 그것에 대해 대화를 나눠 본 적은 없어요. 하지만 아주 최근에 엄청 아름다운 대화들을 하기 시작했어요, 서로를 알아갈 수 있게 만들어주는. 항상 좋은 친구였는데 이제는 정말 가까운 사이가 되었죠. 그냥 친구로서 대화를 나눴으니까 어머니가 사랑에 관한 얘기도 하시더라고요, 사랑에 빠지셨다고. 이제 어머니는 어머니대로 인생을 살면 되는 거에요. 아이들을 위해서 숨기거나 아이들이 창피해할까 봐 걱정할 필요 없이. 그때는 지금과 많이 다른 세대였으니까요. 이제는 완벽하게 어머니만의 인생을, 전적으로 자신만을 위해서 살아가면 되요.

We never spoke about it. We — it just exist. It was there. Everyone knew. But we never spoke about it. Until, like, recently, now we start having these beautiful conversations, and just really getting to know each other. We were always good friends but now we're really great friends. You know. And we were just talking as friends. And then she was sharing that she was in love. She can be herself [now]. She doesn't have to hide for her kids or feel like she's embarrassing her kids. It was a much different time then. [Now] she can just live her full life, her whole life, and be her.

 

 

 

Baquet: 시간이 갈수록 힘들어질까요 젊었을  당신의 음악은 많은 래퍼에게뭐라고 해야 할까요폭력적인 얘기를 전달 했잖아요그게 당신의 자서전  1장이었다면, 2장은 단순화해서 말하자면 “ 이제 돈이 많아이게 얼마나 멋진 건지 얘기해줄게.” 그리고 3장은 “ 인생의 바닥을 맛봤어라면 4장은 무엇일까요?

Will this get harder over time? Like, you know, as a young man, your music was the way a lot of young rappers are — it's like, you know, [your music was about] the violent life. If that's chapter one of the autobiography, chapter two of the autobiography — I'm oversimplifying — is like, "Now I'm really rich. I have a lot of stuff. Let me tell you how cool that is." And then chapter three of the autobiography is, "Oh my god, I've run myself into the ground." So what's chapter four? 

 

Jay-Z: 아니요, 3장은 “아, 제일 아름다운 것들은 이런 물건들이 아니야. 제일 아름다운 건 우리 안에 있어. 그게 우정이든, 동정이든, 그런 것들이 제일 아름다운거야”라는 얘기와 함께 제가 어떤 사람이 되었는지에 대해 얘기하고 있죠. 그리고 제 어머니와 나눴던 대화도요. 그런 것들이 저를 성장시켜준 경험들이에요.

No, chapter three is: Oh my goodness, oh, the most beautiful things are not these objects. The most beautiful things are inside. The most beautiful things are the friendships I have. I have really golden friendships. The compassion and the person I've become — that's what this chapter is. You know? And the conversation with my mom. Those are the real enriching experiences.

 

Baquet: 하지만 그런 비슷한 경험이 계속해서 생길까요그런 얘기들을 계속 가사로  나아갈  있을까요?

But will you have the same adventures in your life? Will you have the same stuff to write about? Or maybe you don't know.

 

Jay-Z: 제 생각에 랩은 젊은 사람들의 운동이에요, 그래서 저는 제일 핫한 공간에서 이미 빠져나온 거죠. 하지만 랩은 발견의 연속인 거 같아요. 그 제일 핫한 공간은 새롭고 재밌는 것들로 채워지고 제일 핫한 노래들을 다루는 곳 이고요. 하지만 전 그 공간을 밀어 낸거죠.

I think that rap in particular is a young man's sport, that I'll move out of that white-hot space. Rap is about the gift of discovery. The white-hot space is when it's fresh and new, and it's like, this is the hottest song ever. I mean I pushed the window, like —

 

Baquet: 아직  공간안에 있나요?

You still — you think you're still in that space? 

 

Jay-Z: 그 공간을 넓힌 거죠. 아, 저는 이 공간에 엄청나게 오래 있었죠. 그래도, 아니요, 이제는 사람들이 저를 제일 핫한 인물로 보지는 않는 거 같아요.

I stretched it. Oh, I stood in that window a really long time. But still, no, I don't think people are looking to me as like, The Thing.

 

Baquet:  변화를 받아드리는  어렵나요아니면 괜찮아지셨나요?

Is that hard to deal with, or did you feel like, I'm O.K. with that, because I've moved on?

 

Jay-Z: 전혀요. 왜냐면 하루의 끝에는 그 핫한 공간이 중요한 게 아니거든요. 진실을 찾아내야죠. 대중들은 그 공간이 제일 중요하고 거대하다고 생각하겠지만 사실 별거 아니에요. 그냥 트렌드이죠. 당신은 잠깐 스쳐 지나가는 트렌드이고 싶으세요, 아니면 랄프 로렌이 되고 싶으세요? 무슨 말인지 아시겠죠? 금방 사라지는 트렌드 혹은 영원한 존재. 저는 모나리자를 보고 “와, 저건 40년후에도 멋있겠다”라고 하는 사람이에요. 저는 영원한 존재에요. 그래서 이제는 그저 진실과 함께하는 것에 집중하고 있죠. 제일 젊고, 핫하고, 새롭고, 유행을 따르는 것들 말고.

No. 'Cause I, at the end of the day we gonna find out it's not about the white-hot space, but it's about finding the truth. That white-hot space — people think it's the biggest thing, but it's really small. It's almost like a trend. Would you rather be a trend, or you rather be Ralph Lauren? You know what I mean; like, you rather be a trend, or you rather be forever? I’m the person that looked at the Mona Lisa and be like, Man, that’s gonna be cool in 40 years. I play forever. And so my whole thing is to identify with the truth. Not to be the youngest, hottest, new, trendy thing.

 

Baquet: 가사 속에 당신이 젊었을  마약을 팔았던 사람들에게 줬던 상처들에 대한 얘기도 있어요 사람들과 대화를 해본 적은 있나요?

One of the things you rap about also is the pain you caused the people you sold drugs to.12 Have you ever had conversations with people like that you caused pain to as a young man and talked about it?

 

Jay-Z: 아니요, 없어요.

No, I haven't. No. 

 

Baquet: 그들에게 뭐라고 하시겠나요? 아니면 지금 와서 불가능한 얘기일까요?

What would you say to them? Or is that impossible to do at this point?

 

Jay-Z: 불가능한 건 없죠. 그 대화는 아마 제 책임에 대해 얘기를 하겠죠. 제가 그 공간에서 했던 역할들이나. 왜냐면 제가 확신하는 것은 자신의 인생을 위해서 남을 희생할 수는 없는 거거든요. 전생의 빚 같은 게 생기는 거죠. 그때 지금만큼 모든 것에 대한 의식이 있었다면 다른 결과가 있었겠죠. 그리고 그걸 다들 알아줬으면 하고요.

Nothing's impossible. I guess that conversation would definitely take ownership for my part in, um, you know, the part I played in occupying that space. Because knowing what I know now, you know, you can't sacrifice others for your life. There's a karmic debt that has to be paid. Had I had the level of consciousness then that I have now, things would have turned out differently. And just knowing that ... I definitely want everyone to know that.

 

Baquet: 흑인 아티스트들은 백인 아티스트들과 조금 다른 의무가 있나요당신이 백인이었다면 달랐을 텐데흑은이어서 당신의 음악을 듣는 사람들에게 돌려줄 어떠한 의무가 있다고 생각하시나요?

Do black artists have a different obligation than white artists? Do you feel you have a different kind of obligation to the people who listen to you than if you were a white musician?

 

Jay-Z: 네, 저는 의무가 있죠. “The Story of O.J.”로 돌아가서 얘기하자면 그걸 통해서 대화를 시작하는 거죠. 그리고 저에게는, 아니 저희 모두에게는, 하지만 특히 저에게는 그 의무는 대화를 시작하는 거에요. 생각을 하는 건 좋은 거에요. 똑똑한 것도 좋은 거이고요. 옛날에는 어떤 얘기를 하면 사람들이 “백인같이 얘기한다”라는 반응을 보일 때가 있었어요. 그게 무슨 뜻일까요? 제가 단어를 알아서? 지능은 피부 색깔에서 나오는 게 아닌데 말이에요. 그리고 당신도 크면서 많이 들어본 얘기일 거에요.

“너 백인같이 얘기하네.” 무슨 뜻일까요? 난 말을 하고 있는 거 뿐인데. 그리고 그것도 괜찮아요, 저는 다시 한번 말하지만 미국 내에서 그저 대화를 시작하는 게 제 의무이니까요. 저희의 감정적 성숙함. 그리고 그 이상의 것들이 저를 항상 겸손하게 만들어 주는 것들이기도 하면서 제가 살면서 갚아 나가야 하는 것들 이기도 해요. 지금까지 이것을 시인들이 계속 갚아나가고 있었던 거 같아요. 그들이 감정을 설명하고 사람들에게 알려주기 시작한 이후에 우리가 모두 “아, 내가 이런걸 느끼고 있는 거구나”를 배운 거니까요.

Yeah, 'cause I have an obligation, going back to the story of O.J., to further conversation of an entire race of people. And to . . . Not me — all of us. But specifically me, since you're asking the question, it's to open up dialogue. [...] It's O.K. to think. It's O.K. to be smart. You know, there was a time when people was like, "you talkin' white." It's like, what does that even mean? I know words? Intelligence is not a tribute to color. And I'm sure you've heard it growing up many times.

"You speaking white." Like, what?I'm speaking like I know words. And it's O.K., it's fine. You know, so I have an obligation to further the conversation and always, you know, our stature in America. Our emotional maturity. And so on and so forth. It's humbling; at the same time it's like, you know, it's what you've been charged with in life. And I believe since the beginning of time the poets have been charged with that. Like it was the poets that's explaining the emotions and making these songs that people like, "Oh, that's what I feel.

 

Baquet: 이름을 직접적으로 말해달라곤  하겠지만이런 대화를 시작하는 의무를 무시하는 흑인 아티스트들도 있나요무언가를   해줬으면 하는 사람들이 있을까요?

Are there black artists, and I won't ask you to name them unless you want to, who you think don't live up to that obligation to start a conversation about race? Do you think there are people you wish did more?

 

Jay-Z: 뭐, O.J.를 빼놓고 얘기할 순 없겠죠? 왜냐면 저희가 동일하게 연결될 수 있는 사람이니까요. 그리고 물론 자신의 역할을 채우지 못하는 사람들도 있죠, 그렇게 되면 어떤 결과로 이어지는지도 알고요.

Well, I mean, and for one, O.J., right? 'Cause that's the one that we can all identify. There are those who don't uphold their mantle, and we know how that story plays out.

 

Baquet: O.J. 만난다면 어떤 얘기를 하고 싶으신가요?

What would you say to him if you could talk to him?

 

Jay-Z: 잘 모르겠네요. 아마 “너에게 너무 많은 일이 생겨서 미안하게 생각해”라고 할 거 같아요. 사람들은 각자 개인의 경험을 바탕으로 행동하는데, 그는 분명 많은 트라우마가 생겼을 거라고 생각해요. 그게 아마 대화의 시작이 되겠죠.

I don't know. I would probably say, "Man, I'm sorry that so much happened to you, man." You know, people act out in this way based on their life experiences and, you know, I'm sure he's been through a lot of trauma in his life. I think that'll start the conversation.

 

Baquet: 그의 대한 다큐멘터리를 본적이 있나요?

Did you watch the documentary about him?

 

Jay-Z: 하나도 빠짐없이 봤습니다.

I watched every one.

 

Baquet: O.J. 이야기를  가지의 방식으로 이해할  있을  같아요사람들에게 “ 흑인이야라는걸 다시 한번 상기시켜주는 이야기이건 긍정적인 면과 부정적인    있는  같아요긍정적인 메시지는 “ 흑인이고 그걸 자랑스러워해야 ,” 그리고 부정적인 메시지는 “장난해이건 컨트리클럽에 가입하든 골프를 치든 변하지 않는 사실이야.” 이런 식으로 이해할  있을  같은데어떤  맞는  같나요?

You could read the story of O.J. two ways. You could say it's a reminder of people that they're black. I could read that as a negative message or a positive message. The positive message being: You're black and you should be more proud of it. The negative message is: Who are you kidding? You can't escape this by joining a private country club and playing golf. Which message feels like the right [one]?

 

Jay-Z: 둘 다, 아마 두 개 다 동시에 존재하는 데에서 의미가 있는 거 같아요. “네가 누구인지에 대해 자부심을 느끼고 앞으로 나아갈 거라는걸 기억해, 그리고 포기하지 마. 네가 처음 시작한 곳에 등을 돌릴 수는 없잖아. 너는 이 사회 안에 존재하니까.” 이런 식인 거 같아요. 그 커뮤니티 속 사람들을 모두 더 높은 곳으로 올려주던지, 대신 무시하면 어떻게 되는지 저희 다 아니까요. 타이거 우즈처럼요.

They both, they both dual messages at the same time. It's like, be proud of who you are and realize that we're gonna get further together. Don't check out. You can't just turn your back on the place you come from. You come from a community. Your job is to uplift it now. Or, we know how it turns out. Once we start being Tiger Woods.

 

Baquet: 그럼 이제 가십에 대해 조금 이야기해보려고 해요앨범에 조금 포함  있기도 한데칸예 웨스트와의 관계에 관해서 얘기를 해주세요마지막으로 나눴던 대화는 언제인가요?

So now I gotta ask my one gossipy question. Talk about Kanye West and your relationship with him, which you alluded to a little bit in the album. When's the last time you talked to him?

 

Jay-Z: 칸예랑 어제도 대화했어요, 그냥 내 형제 같다는 얘기를 전해주려고요. 전 칸예를 사랑해요. 정말이에요. 그저 복잡한 관계가 된 것 뿐이죠.

I [talked to] Kanye the other day, just to tell him, like, he's my brother. I love Kanye. I do. It's a complicated relationship with us.

 

Baquet:  복잡한가요?

Why is it complicated?

 

Jay-Z: 왜냐면 칸예와 제 레이블 간에 문제가 있었잖아요. 그래도 저는 항상 그에게 친형같 은 존재였어요. 그리고 저희 둘 다 연예인이기 때문에 항상 알게 모르게 경쟁하는 분위기였죠. 하지만 저희 둘 다 서로의 작품들을 사랑하고 존중해요. 저희 둘 다, 아니 모든 사람이 세계 최고가 되고 싶어 하니까 많은 요인이 생길 수 밖에 없는 거죠. 무슨 말인지 이해되세요? 그래도 저희는 항상 사이가 좋아요.

'Cause, you know — Kanye came into this business on my label. So I've always been like his big brother. And we're both entertainers. It's always been like a little underlying competition with your big brother. And we both love and respect each other's art, too. So it's like, we both — everyone wants to be the greatest in the world. You know what I'm saying? And then there's like a lot of other factors that play in it. But it's gonna, we gonna always be good.

 

Baquet: 그래도 지금  사이에 긴장감이 있지 않나요?

But there's tension now, right?

 

Jay-Z: 네네. 그런 일들이 가끔 있죠. 관계를 오래 지속하다보면, 예를 들면 89살이 되는 해에는, 지금 이 6개월을 돌아보며 그저 웃을 수 있게 되겠죠. 무슨 말인지 아시죠? 함께 헤쳐나가야 할 문제들이 관계 안에서 생기는 거에요. 그리고 그런 것들을 이겨내기 위해서 같이 대화를 나눠야 하는 거죠. “난 이런 것들이 불편해. 내 입장에선 이런 것들이 용납이 되지 않고, 난 지금 이런 기분이야”라고 하면서 제가 잘못한 부분들도 이해해봐야죠. 이런 것들이 저도 완벽한 사람이 아니라는걸 증명하는 거에요.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that happens. In the long relationship, you know, hopefully when we're 89 we look at this six months or whatever time and we laugh at that. You know what I'm saying? There's gonna be complications in the relationship that we have to get through. And the only way to get through that is we sit down and have a dialogue and say, "These are the things that I'm uncomfortable with. These are the things that are unacceptable to me. This is what I feel." I'm sure he feels that I've done things to him as well. You know what I'm saying? These are — I'm not a perfect human being by no stretch. You know.

 

Baquet: 그도 당신만큼 성숙한가요?

Is he as evolved as you?

 

Jay-Z: 성숙하죠아니저보다  동정적인 입장에서 시작했을 거에요저처럼 본능에 의지하면서 생존해야 하는 상황을 겪었을지는 모르겠지만저는 제가 다르게 자랐기 때문에 오늘 여기  자리에 있다고 생각해요그런 상황을 이겨냈으니까요  앨범은 제가 26  발매가 되었어요다른 사람들은 17, 18   앨범을 내곤 했는데 저는 그게 아니었으니까 이미 성숙한 아티스트였죠나스처럼 지식이 많은 사람이 아니고서야  나이에 다룰  있는 얘기들은 한정되어 있으니까요어쨌든 칸예는 되게 동정심이 깊은 사람이에요자기가 다치면서까지 다른 사람들을 도와주고는 하죠그건 저와 비슷한 부분이고요그냥  입장에서 용납이 되지 않는 사건들이   있었던  뿐이고 그저 대화가 필요했던  뿐이에요그사이에 진심으로 사랑하는 마음은 그대로 있고요.

He's highly evolved. No, he's ... I think he started out in a more compassionate position than me. You know what I'm saying. I don't know if he's had the level of — I mean, I had to survive by my instincts. I'm here because I grew up a different way. And I got out of that. You know, my first album came out when I was 26. So I was already a different artist. You know, a lot of people's album come out they're 17, 18. So their subject matter is that of a 17- or 18-year-old. Unless you're Nas, and you like, well-read... — like, he was way more advanced with the album that he wrote. So I just grew up a different way. But [West is] a very compassionate person. And a lot of times he get in trouble trying to help others. So I can identify with it. It's just that there's certain things that happened that's not really acceptable to me. And we just need to speak about it. But there's genuine love there.

 

 

 

 

Baquet: 당신의 와이프와 함께 이런 앨범을 만드는 과정을 상상해 보려고 노력 중이에요. “나는 우리 결혼에 대한 이런 문제들을 가사로  거야우리가 모든  포기하려고 했던 순간들 까지도라고 했을때 그녀는 “ 당신에게 받은 상처에 대해  거야라는 대화가 상상이  가는데이런 대화들이 있었나요?

I'm trying to picture the scene when you and your wife both talked about making these very confessional, open albums. Was it difficult to say: "I'm gonna talk about the problems in our marriage. I'm gonna talk about how we almost lost things." And for her to say: "I'm gonna talk about my pain and anger at you." What were those conversations like?

 

Jay-Z: 다시 한번 말하지만 그런 식으로 하진 않았어요저희는 음악을 만드는 과정에 그저 정신과 상담을 받는 거와 같은 마음으로 다가갔어요그리고 자연스럽게 같이 음악을 만들게 되었죠그냥 그녀의 작업 속도가  빨라져 먼저 개인 앨범을 완성하게 되었고같이 작업하던 것들보다 그걸 먼저 발매하게   뿐이에요. “ 이런 앨범을 만들 거야라는 대화는 없었죠 과정의 처음부터 끝까지 제가 옆에 있었으니까요.

Again, it didn't — it didn't happen in that way. It happened — we were using our art almost like a therapy session. And we started making music together. And then the music she was making at that time was further along. So her album came out as opposed to the joint album that we were working on. Um, we still have a lot of that music. And this is what it became. There was never a point where it was like, “I’m making this album.” I was right there the entire time.

 

Baquet: 그럼 당신의 음악에 대한 그녀의 반응은 어땠나요당신의 반응은서로에게 상처가 되진 않았나요?

And what was her reaction to your work and what was your reaction to hers? They must have caused pain for each of you, right?

 

Jay-Z: 당연하죠저희   많이 불편해했어요하지만허리케인에 비유하자면허리케인 속에서 제일 좋은 장소는  중간이거든요저희는  허리케인의 중심에 있었던 거죠이런 비유는 지금 많은 사람이 허리케인 때문에 영향을 받는  상황에서 좋지는 않겠네요.

어쨌든 그 중심에 앉아서 불편한 대화들을 많이 나눴어요. 저는 그녀의 음악에 자부심을 느껴요, 그녀도 마찬가지이고요. 그리고 하루의 끝에서 저희는 각자의 기술을 존중해요. 저는 그녀가 대단하다고 생각해요. 알잖아요, 대부분의 사람은 힘들때 그냥 떠나요. 이혼율이 50%인가 그렇잖아요, 왜냐면 대부분의 사람은 자기 자신을 못 보니까. 세상에서 제일 어려운 건 자기에 의해서 남이 아파하고 있는 얼굴을 그대로 직면하는 거에요. 자기가 책임져야 하니까요.

근데 대부분 그렇게 하지 않죠. 자신의 내면을 보기 싫어서 그저 등을 돌리고 떠나가요. 

Of course. And both very, very uncomfortable, but [...] the best place in the, you know, hurricane is like in the middle of it. We were sitting in the eye of that hurricane. Uh, maybe not use hurricane because so many people are being affected right now. But the best place is right in the middle of the pain.

And that's where we were sitting. And it was uncomfortable. And we had a lot of conversations. You know. [I was] really proud of the music she made, and she was really proud of the art I released. And, you know, at the end of the day we really have a healthy respect for one another's craft. I think she's amazing. You know, most people walk away, and like divorce rate is like 50 percent or something ’cause most people can’t see themselves. The hardest thing is seeing pain on someone’s face that you caused, and then have to deal with yourself. So, you know, most people don't want to do that. You don't want to look inside yourself. And so you walk away.

 

 

-- 

[Interview by]: Dean Baquet

[Source]: The New York Times

[Translation by]: HIPHOPPLAYA 이승연 (lsy@hiphopplaya.com)

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2020-06-30 19:18:29

이런 컨텐츠 너무 좋아요

2020-07-16 23:44:10

감사합니다 

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